836LikesTamiya Championship Series
02-27-2008, 11:19 PM
#7651
Chris, with all due respect, I don't see where it says in the rules that the Mini motors are all supposed to be equal. It's competitive- that's why they call it racing. I dug hard to get where I am and find out what I know, I'm proud of that, and I don't give up easily.
If they want to change the rules so that all motors are equal like the sealed motor class in SCCA, that's fine with me...but I'll still be trying to find an edge somehow just like the fast SCCA guys.
Why? Because I'm a competitive racer.
If they want to change the rules so that all motors are equal like the sealed motor class in SCCA, that's fine with me...but I'll still be trying to find an edge somehow just like the fast SCCA guys.
Why? Because I'm a competitive racer.
02-28-2008, 12:47 AM
#7652
Wait a minute, Doc says driving skill becomes more important if the motors are equal. If that happens I'm skrewed, please disregard all previous posts attempting to equalize motors. Thanks Chris
02-28-2008, 09:07 AM
#7655
02-28-2008, 09:56 AM
#7656
I agree, Jeff. Not really sure that the situation as it is right now is 'potentially ruinous' as Dave says- Mini and GT3 are often two of the largest classes at TCS events, so people are obviously not running away- but I'd be willing to make the class slower, if for no other reason than that I can drive better with a slower car (it's an age thing). Slower cars might also make some of the hyper-fast sedan guys (who can actually drive these little rockets well) less interested so they'll move to other classes and leave us alone.
Here's an alternative: publish the 2009 TCS Mini rules NOW. Limit motors to
1)the latest kit Mabuchi (the dull ones with the white cap on the stacks)- no more 4 vents, no more 540J's, only the new stuff that everybody can buy, and
2)ban any magnet/timing enhancement techniques (these are easily determined by a knowledgeable tech person- I'd be happy to demonstrate), and
3)limit motor RPM to 13,500 at five volts (easily checked with an Orion in about 10 seconds). That's a bit above your average nicely broken in new Mabuchi, so nobody gets stuck. Just tech and mark Mini motors when racers check in and mandate use of the same motor for the Q's and Mains (no need for multiple motors when the numbers are that low- they'll live pretty mich forever), with a 2nd motor special exception for the odd racer who has a motor that just dies.
That way:
A)everyone has time to burn out/wear out their existing VooDoo motors during the remainder of the 2008 season, and
B)we'll all be prepared and not surprised next year, and
C)the amp draw with the new motors is so low that the Tamiya ESC's that come with the kits will actually work pretty well & racer's won't feel they have to buy the latest NovaTekRP 5000 for $200, and
D)tires and inserts will be less of an issue due to the lower speeds, and
E)batteries will be less of an issue, whether Lipo or Nimh, and
F)speeds will be more even from car to car.
Of course, this means that driving skill becomes an even larger component of a winning drive, and that the fast guys/good drivers will still win, but there will be a lot less to complain about with regard to motors.
Here's an alternative: publish the 2009 TCS Mini rules NOW. Limit motors to
1)the latest kit Mabuchi (the dull ones with the white cap on the stacks)- no more 4 vents, no more 540J's, only the new stuff that everybody can buy, and
2)ban any magnet/timing enhancement techniques (these are easily determined by a knowledgeable tech person- I'd be happy to demonstrate), and
3)limit motor RPM to 13,500 at five volts (easily checked with an Orion in about 10 seconds). That's a bit above your average nicely broken in new Mabuchi, so nobody gets stuck. Just tech and mark Mini motors when racers check in and mandate use of the same motor for the Q's and Mains (no need for multiple motors when the numbers are that low- they'll live pretty mich forever), with a 2nd motor special exception for the odd racer who has a motor that just dies.
That way:
A)everyone has time to burn out/wear out their existing VooDoo motors during the remainder of the 2008 season, and
B)we'll all be prepared and not surprised next year, and
C)the amp draw with the new motors is so low that the Tamiya ESC's that come with the kits will actually work pretty well & racer's won't feel they have to buy the latest NovaTekRP 5000 for $200, and
D)tires and inserts will be less of an issue due to the lower speeds, and
E)batteries will be less of an issue, whether Lipo or Nimh, and
F)speeds will be more even from car to car.
Of course, this means that driving skill becomes an even larger component of a winning drive, and that the fast guys/good drivers will still win, but there will be a lot less to complain about with regard to motors.
Maybe I overstated it a bit - potentially ruinous motor war might be better. Yes, Mini is usually the 1st or 2nd in class attendance at most TCS events, and I'd like to keep it that way. This motor discrepency problem should not be allowed to drag down that popularity.
I agree this suggestion of yours might be a good idea as well for the remainder of 2008. And inform all that 2009 will be either that same rule, or a switch to brushless. (Even though I was late in jumping into brushless (held off as long as I could - still prefer the feel of stock motor in my sedan), the future is clear - brushed motors will be extinct from RC racing in very short order). My only hesitation with the brushless idea is exactly what has been mentioned - the Mini's are a great way to get started in RC racing, with a Suzuki kit with bearings, silver can, and brushed ESC going for $120 or so.
So I think your numbers of a 13,500 rpm limit is also a good one - I put through about 50 fresh out of the box 540J motors for the Mini Mayhem on a Fantom dyno (5v), after doing a minimal break in for each one (bushing buster to the bushings to free them up, couple mins of water dip, reoiled, then tested), and none exceeded 13,500 - a couple bumped up close to that. (BP Shadow - you got to borrow one of those that was close). (Most of those motors tested out with RPM and torque numbers within 5% of each other (save for a couple that couldn't even turn 10,000 rpm - real duds). I don't believe that you can legally (i.e. no magnet stuff) make a new style silver can (again, no more 4 slots) turn anything close to 15,000 at 5v, so that 15,000 number is just too plain high.
Just an aside about RPM numbers - high PRM numbers are probably not really a problem with GT3, it is the gear limited classes like MINI (everyone runs a 20 tooth max sized pinion) or Spec TL01 that RPM max becomes such a big factor.
My hesitation with your idea is just one of logistics at TCS regional events - tech is always pretty "laisez faire" at these events, and to have each motor tested before each run might be pretty hard to pull off in practice. If you tech and mark the motor before all runs that might work, but you know there is always going to be the guy going out to the back parking lot to attempt to perform some "motor magic." I'd therefore suggest that the winner's (1,2 & 3) motors also be teched post mains, and anyone having a motor that pulls more than 14,000 have the main run disqualified. That gives us about a 4% margin of error from the original testing and would account for the extra break in by running of the motor that might arguably improving it's performance.
But I think you have the same idea I do - we need to bring an end to the rare earth magnet stuff, magnet zapping, etc that should be considered as not allowed under the rules.
As for this change making it better for us "old" guys (I'm not that far behind you), well, yes, I'd like to see the class a bit slower overall, but not for us old slow reaction types benefit but to benefit what this class is about - a good fun low key class with a minimum of money for hop ups, minimal tire wear, minimal parts breakage. But on the subject of old versus youngsters, I'll tell you what Nathan (16) said to me after the TCS Trackside event: He was torn between running GT1 + GT2 or GT2 and Mini, and would up with running GT1 & GT2. He watched the Minis, and said - "boy Dad, I'm sure glad I chose GT1 instead of the Mini - your car was great for 3/4's of the track, but you were getting absolutely killed on the straights - it was all motor." (And that's no disrespect to Mr. Whippler - he certainly had one heck of a motor, but his car was also good the the 3/4 infield and he drove well too)
02-28-2008, 03:41 PM
#7657
Wow!!!! Some very well reasoned arguments from some racers who have given this a lot of thought. Most make sense and will watch for the end result. But to the more immediate problem---- Any one have any excess
60Ds for sale?????
60Ds for sale?????
02-28-2008, 07:00 PM
#7660
Doc:
Maybe I overstated it a bit - potentially ruinous motor war might be better. Yes, Mini is usually the 1st or 2nd in class attendance at most TCS events, and I'd like to keep it that way. This motor discrepency problem should not be allowed to drag down that popularity.
I agree this suggestion of yours might be a good idea as well for the remainder of 2008. And inform all that 2009 will be either that same rule, or a switch to brushless. (Even though I was late in jumping into brushless (held off as long as I could - still prefer the feel of stock motor in my sedan), the future is clear - brushed motors will be extinct from RC racing in very short order). My only hesitation with the brushless idea is exactly what has been mentioned - the Mini's are a great way to get started in RC racing, with a Suzuki kit with bearings, silver can, and brushed ESC going for $120 or so.
So I think your numbers of a 13,500 rpm limit is also a good one - I put through about 50 fresh out of the box 540J motors for the Mini Mayhem on a Fantom dyno (5v), after doing a minimal break in for each one (bushing buster to the bushings to free them up, couple mins of water dip, reoiled, then tested), and none exceeded 13,500 - a couple bumped up close to that. (BP Shadow - you got to borrow one of those that was close). (Most of those motors tested out with RPM and torque numbers within 5% of each other (save for a couple that couldn't even turn 10,000 rpm - real duds). I don't believe that you can legally (i.e. no magnet stuff) make a new style silver can (again, no more 4 slots) turn anything close to 15,000 at 5v, so that 15,000 number is just too plain high.
Just an aside about RPM numbers - high PRM numbers are probably not really a problem with GT3, it is the gear limited classes like MINI (everyone runs a 20 tooth max sized pinion) or Spec TL01 that RPM max becomes such a big factor.
My hesitation with your idea is just one of logistics at TCS regional events - tech is always pretty "laisez faire" at these events, and to have each motor tested before each run might be pretty hard to pull off in practice. If you tech and mark the motor before all runs that might work, but you know there is always going to be the guy going out to the back parking lot to attempt to perform some "motor magic." I'd therefore suggest that the winner's (1,2 & 3) motors also be teched post mains, and anyone having a motor that pulls more than 14,000 have the main run disqualified. That gives us about a 4% margin of error from the original testing and would account for the extra break in by running of the motor that might arguably improving it's performance.
But I think you have the same idea I do - we need to bring an end to the rare earth magnet stuff, magnet zapping, etc that should be considered as not allowed under the rules.
As for this change making it better for us "old" guys (I'm not that far behind you), well, yes, I'd like to see the class a bit slower overall, but not for us old slow reaction types benefit but to benefit what this class is about - a good fun low key class with a minimum of money for hop ups, minimal tire wear, minimal parts breakage. But on the subject of old versus youngsters, I'll tell you what Nathan (16) said to me after the TCS Trackside event: He was torn between running GT1 + GT2 or GT2 and Mini, and would up with running GT1 & GT2. He watched the Minis, and said - "boy Dad, I'm sure glad I chose GT1 instead of the Mini - your car was great for 3/4's of the track, but you were getting absolutely killed on the straights - it was all motor." (And that's no disrespect to Mr. Whippler - he certainly had one heck of a motor, but his car was also good the the 3/4 infield and he drove well too)
Maybe I overstated it a bit - potentially ruinous motor war might be better. Yes, Mini is usually the 1st or 2nd in class attendance at most TCS events, and I'd like to keep it that way. This motor discrepency problem should not be allowed to drag down that popularity.
I agree this suggestion of yours might be a good idea as well for the remainder of 2008. And inform all that 2009 will be either that same rule, or a switch to brushless. (Even though I was late in jumping into brushless (held off as long as I could - still prefer the feel of stock motor in my sedan), the future is clear - brushed motors will be extinct from RC racing in very short order). My only hesitation with the brushless idea is exactly what has been mentioned - the Mini's are a great way to get started in RC racing, with a Suzuki kit with bearings, silver can, and brushed ESC going for $120 or so.
So I think your numbers of a 13,500 rpm limit is also a good one - I put through about 50 fresh out of the box 540J motors for the Mini Mayhem on a Fantom dyno (5v), after doing a minimal break in for each one (bushing buster to the bushings to free them up, couple mins of water dip, reoiled, then tested), and none exceeded 13,500 - a couple bumped up close to that. (BP Shadow - you got to borrow one of those that was close). (Most of those motors tested out with RPM and torque numbers within 5% of each other (save for a couple that couldn't even turn 10,000 rpm - real duds). I don't believe that you can legally (i.e. no magnet stuff) make a new style silver can (again, no more 4 slots) turn anything close to 15,000 at 5v, so that 15,000 number is just too plain high.
Just an aside about RPM numbers - high PRM numbers are probably not really a problem with GT3, it is the gear limited classes like MINI (everyone runs a 20 tooth max sized pinion) or Spec TL01 that RPM max becomes such a big factor.
My hesitation with your idea is just one of logistics at TCS regional events - tech is always pretty "laisez faire" at these events, and to have each motor tested before each run might be pretty hard to pull off in practice. If you tech and mark the motor before all runs that might work, but you know there is always going to be the guy going out to the back parking lot to attempt to perform some "motor magic." I'd therefore suggest that the winner's (1,2 & 3) motors also be teched post mains, and anyone having a motor that pulls more than 14,000 have the main run disqualified. That gives us about a 4% margin of error from the original testing and would account for the extra break in by running of the motor that might arguably improving it's performance.
But I think you have the same idea I do - we need to bring an end to the rare earth magnet stuff, magnet zapping, etc that should be considered as not allowed under the rules.
As for this change making it better for us "old" guys (I'm not that far behind you), well, yes, I'd like to see the class a bit slower overall, but not for us old slow reaction types benefit but to benefit what this class is about - a good fun low key class with a minimum of money for hop ups, minimal tire wear, minimal parts breakage. But on the subject of old versus youngsters, I'll tell you what Nathan (16) said to me after the TCS Trackside event: He was torn between running GT1 + GT2 or GT2 and Mini, and would up with running GT1 & GT2. He watched the Minis, and said - "boy Dad, I'm sure glad I chose GT1 instead of the Mini - your car was great for 3/4's of the track, but you were getting absolutely killed on the straights - it was all motor." (And that's no disrespect to Mr. Whippler - he certainly had one heck of a motor, but his car was also good the the 3/4 infield and he drove well too)
02-28-2008, 07:07 PM
#7661
Tech Master
iTrader: (44)
Doc:
Maybe I overstated it a bit - potentially ruinous motor war might be better. Yes, Mini is usually the 1st or 2nd in class attendance at most TCS events, and I'd like to keep it that way. This motor discrepency problem should not be allowed to drag down that popularity.
I agree this suggestion of yours might be a good idea as well for the remainder of 2008. And inform all that 2009 will be either that same rule, or a switch to brushless. (Even though I was late in jumping into brushless (held off as long as I could - still prefer the feel of stock motor in my sedan), the future is clear - brushed motors will be extinct from RC racing in very short order). My only hesitation with the brushless idea is exactly what has been mentioned - the Mini's are a great way to get started in RC racing, with a Suzuki kit with bearings, silver can, and brushed ESC going for $120 or so.
So I think your numbers of a 13,500 rpm limit is also a good one - I put through about 50 fresh out of the box 540J motors for the Mini Mayhem on a Fantom dyno (5v), after doing a minimal break in for each one (bushing buster to the bushings to free them up, couple mins of water dip, reoiled, then tested), and none exceeded 13,500 - a couple bumped up close to that. (BP Shadow - you got to borrow one of those that was close). (Most of those motors tested out with RPM and torque numbers within 5% of each other (save for a couple that couldn't even turn 10,000 rpm - real duds). I don't believe that you can legally (i.e. no magnet stuff) make a new style silver can (again, no more 4 slots) turn anything close to 15,000 at 5v, so that 15,000 number is just too plain high.
Just an aside about RPM numbers - high PRM numbers are probably not really a problem with GT3, it is the gear limited classes like MINI (everyone runs a 20 tooth max sized pinion) or Spec TL01 that RPM max becomes such a big factor.
My hesitation with your idea is just one of logistics at TCS regional events - tech is always pretty "laisez faire" at these events, and to have each motor tested before each run might be pretty hard to pull off in practice. If you tech and mark the motor before all runs that might work, but you know there is always going to be the guy going out to the back parking lot to attempt to perform some "motor magic." I'd therefore suggest that the winner's (1,2 & 3) motors also be teched post mains, and anyone having a motor that pulls more than 14,000 have the main run disqualified. That gives us about a 4% margin of error from the original testing and would account for the extra break in by running of the motor that might arguably improving it's performance.
But I think you have the same idea I do - we need to bring an end to the rare earth magnet stuff, magnet zapping, etc that should be considered as not allowed under the rules.
As for this change making it better for us "old" guys (I'm not that far behind you), well, yes, I'd like to see the class a bit slower overall, but not for us old slow reaction types benefit but to benefit what this class is about - a good fun low key class with a minimum of money for hop ups, minimal tire wear, minimal parts breakage. But on the subject of old versus youngsters, I'll tell you what Nathan (16) said to me after the TCS Trackside event: He was torn between running GT1 + GT2 or GT2 and Mini, and would up with running GT1 & GT2. He watched the Minis, and said - "boy Dad, I'm sure glad I chose GT1 instead of the Mini - your car was great for 3/4's of the track, but you were getting absolutely killed on the straights - it was all motor." (And that's no disrespect to Mr. Whippler - he certainly had one heck of a motor, but his car was also good the the 3/4 infield and he drove well too)
Maybe I overstated it a bit - potentially ruinous motor war might be better. Yes, Mini is usually the 1st or 2nd in class attendance at most TCS events, and I'd like to keep it that way. This motor discrepency problem should not be allowed to drag down that popularity.
I agree this suggestion of yours might be a good idea as well for the remainder of 2008. And inform all that 2009 will be either that same rule, or a switch to brushless. (Even though I was late in jumping into brushless (held off as long as I could - still prefer the feel of stock motor in my sedan), the future is clear - brushed motors will be extinct from RC racing in very short order). My only hesitation with the brushless idea is exactly what has been mentioned - the Mini's are a great way to get started in RC racing, with a Suzuki kit with bearings, silver can, and brushed ESC going for $120 or so.
So I think your numbers of a 13,500 rpm limit is also a good one - I put through about 50 fresh out of the box 540J motors for the Mini Mayhem on a Fantom dyno (5v), after doing a minimal break in for each one (bushing buster to the bushings to free them up, couple mins of water dip, reoiled, then tested), and none exceeded 13,500 - a couple bumped up close to that. (BP Shadow - you got to borrow one of those that was close). (Most of those motors tested out with RPM and torque numbers within 5% of each other (save for a couple that couldn't even turn 10,000 rpm - real duds). I don't believe that you can legally (i.e. no magnet stuff) make a new style silver can (again, no more 4 slots) turn anything close to 15,000 at 5v, so that 15,000 number is just too plain high.
Just an aside about RPM numbers - high PRM numbers are probably not really a problem with GT3, it is the gear limited classes like MINI (everyone runs a 20 tooth max sized pinion) or Spec TL01 that RPM max becomes such a big factor.
My hesitation with your idea is just one of logistics at TCS regional events - tech is always pretty "laisez faire" at these events, and to have each motor tested before each run might be pretty hard to pull off in practice. If you tech and mark the motor before all runs that might work, but you know there is always going to be the guy going out to the back parking lot to attempt to perform some "motor magic." I'd therefore suggest that the winner's (1,2 & 3) motors also be teched post mains, and anyone having a motor that pulls more than 14,000 have the main run disqualified. That gives us about a 4% margin of error from the original testing and would account for the extra break in by running of the motor that might arguably improving it's performance.
But I think you have the same idea I do - we need to bring an end to the rare earth magnet stuff, magnet zapping, etc that should be considered as not allowed under the rules.
As for this change making it better for us "old" guys (I'm not that far behind you), well, yes, I'd like to see the class a bit slower overall, but not for us old slow reaction types benefit but to benefit what this class is about - a good fun low key class with a minimum of money for hop ups, minimal tire wear, minimal parts breakage. But on the subject of old versus youngsters, I'll tell you what Nathan (16) said to me after the TCS Trackside event: He was torn between running GT1 + GT2 or GT2 and Mini, and would up with running GT1 & GT2. He watched the Minis, and said - "boy Dad, I'm sure glad I chose GT1 instead of the Mini - your car was great for 3/4's of the track, but you were getting absolutely killed on the straights - it was all motor." (And that's no disrespect to Mr. Whippler - he certainly had one heck of a motor, but his car was also good the the 3/4 infield and he drove well too)
My only adder on this subject is in regards to what silver can we're allowed to run. I don't think we should limit it to just one motor, because Tamiya actively distributes multiple types in their kits. I've bought a lot of Tamiya kits recently to build for the heck of it, and out of the 6 most recent kits I pulled no less than 4 different types of motors; to include 540J's, a Mabuchi 540SH, some dull can white bobbin "fan" motor, and even a silver endbell Chinese Mabuchi. The 4-slots are antiques.....so of course they would be history.
But as Doc recommends, let's look to work this into 2009. Too many people have already prepped, planned, and polished their gear for 2008.
02-28-2008, 07:16 PM
#7662
Good Luck to All of the TCS Racers this weekend! 
I am interested to see how the Vintage Class performs.
I can only hope that not all the classes for next year go brushless. Still would be nice to have a silver(spec and mini) and black(gt3-2009?)can motor class to run in. Would be nice to have to rules before the start of the new season.
Again Good Luck to All!
Dave H.
I am interested to see how the Vintage Class performs.
I can only hope that not all the classes for next year go brushless. Still would be nice to have a silver(spec and mini) and black(gt3-2009?)can motor class to run in. Would be nice to have to rules before the start of the new season.
Again Good Luck to All!
Dave H.
02-28-2008, 07:24 PM
#7663
Im not going to get up on the soap box tonight.
Doc called me from the airport this afternoon to say that he was sorry that I wouldn't be out there this weekend and that it wouldnt be the same without me (that can swing either way, Marty feel free to post a snappy comeback) and I greatly appreciate that. I am bummed that I cant make it out for the final run at Aliso. But it really puts things in perspective, we can debate motor legality till we quit breathing, but at the end of the day it is the relationships and friendships that are forged in this insanitarium known as TCS. I would loved to have been there, but I am needed here, so good luck and safe travel to everyone this weekend. Now back to the dyno for me, a case of beer and case of mabuchis are goin down tonight
Doc called me from the airport this afternoon to say that he was sorry that I wouldn't be out there this weekend and that it wouldnt be the same without me (that can swing either way, Marty feel free to post a snappy comeback) and I greatly appreciate that. I am bummed that I cant make it out for the final run at Aliso. But it really puts things in perspective, we can debate motor legality till we quit breathing, but at the end of the day it is the relationships and friendships that are forged in this insanitarium known as TCS. I would loved to have been there, but I am needed here, so good luck and safe travel to everyone this weekend. Now back to the dyno for me, a case of beer and case of mabuchis are goin down tonight
02-28-2008, 09:14 PM
#7665
Snappy? I'll give you snappy......
"Was that 'fuk me' or 'fuk you' that distracted you at the drivers meeting?"
(one of the funniest and at the same time most embarasing 
moments in TCS history)
As Brad stated, it is really all about the relationships and long lasting friendships that TCS has allowed to develope.
Thanks again, TAMIYA!
This weekend will hopefully be alot of fun, but it will also be somewhat sad 
.
Thanks to TAMIYA and the vision of TCS and all the folks I have come to know and call friend in the end, you too Larry.
I am somewhat stoked for a bit of a party atmosphere this weekend. Let's ALL do our part to make it a great weekend.
Let's make it a great one! If you can make this race, you can make history!
Marty
"Was that 'fuk me' or 'fuk you' that distracted you at the drivers meeting?"
(one of the funniest and at the same time most embarasing moments in TCS history)As Brad stated, it is really all about the relationships and long lasting friendships that TCS has allowed to develope.
Thanks again, TAMIYA!
This weekend will hopefully be alot of fun
, but it will also be somewhat sad .Thanks to TAMIYA and the vision of TCS and all the folks I have come to know and call friend in the end, you too Larry.
I am somewhat stoked for a bit of a party atmosphere this weekend. Let's ALL do our part to make it a great weekend.
Let's make it a great one! If you can make this race, you can make history!
Marty
