5LikesSC10 4x4 Thread
01-13-2012, 07:13 PM
Tech Regular
01-13-2012, 07:14 PM
I don't want 20. My track is extremely blown out by the 8th guys. 20 is just too little, Dual stage or not. I have to give up some handling in order to not SMACK everywhere. (believe me, forward momentum or not) this is bad.
Got my Pro 4 4000kv. (and a box of goodies, totally worth posting a pic in abit)
Got my Pro 4 4000kv. (and a box of goodies, totally worth posting a pic in abit)
30wt in 2 stage pistons is going to overpack and bounce on the bigger jumps especially in the front since there is no weight up there. Your statement about 20 being too light 2 stage or not is incorrect, it has been proven by MANY that the pistons work better with lighter fluids ESPECIALLY on rutted tracks. If you have a track that has smooth landings off of the big jumps you can get away with it but at the expensive of slower rebound which counter acts the point of 2 stage pistons. Copy my setup, drive it and then we can dial you in. If you ask questions about how to make your truck handle correctly but with a mixture of setups no one can truly help you besides taking a guess at it. If you have my exact setup i can immediately tell you what to change because i have already been through it all.
Last edited by MantisWorx; 01-13-2012 at 07:26 PM.
01-13-2012, 07:26 PM
So your going to argue with me about my own pistons huh? im telling you now 30 is too heavy for my pistons on ANY track with an exception of super high bite smooth track with no jumps. your not gonig to smack anything anywhere. why would you want thicker oil on a rutted out track, thats backwards? just about every track i run on is 1/8 rutted out and i usually end up with the quickest lap times and a win.......with 25/20! I cant help you with your setup if you dont do at least do as i ask first, if it doesnt work than so be it but your statement is backwards about oil.....im just sayin
01-13-2012, 07:28 PM
i added to that post and please dont take it the wrong way. You asked for help and you self admitted that you needed to learn how to tune so i am trying to help you learn
01-13-2012, 07:34 PM
I have ran much lighter oils. I ran 25/30 in my Sc10 when I first got it. I smacked all over the track with 1.2's. I found 35/27.5 to be perfect. (this is disregarding the dualpistons. I'm not placing that into this equation example) I'm also running Emulsion and wanted to go just a bit thicker for that reason too.
Stepping 5wt up in your pistons was not that big of a deal to me, it has nothing to do with being stubborn, it has to do with what I 'think' works at my track that "I" drive. 5wt more than what 'everyone' suggests always was just enough to not slap all over and donkey kick off the ground at our upper torn out section. (no, it's not springs or lack of rebound, tested extensively) Experience or not. I'm not asking for tuning 101 (as I said) only stated I don't know 'what' to look for to begin trying other things like roll center and camber based on a corner. So i'm using my knowledge in this. Not running on a Blank sheet of paper here.
It's never fun to admit (especially when you build stuff for people and work LHS) that I don't know how to do something. That (taken wrongly I suppose) is a prime example.
01-13-2012, 07:42 PM
So your going to argue with me about my own pistons huh? Im telling you now 30 is too heavy for my pistons on ANY track with an exception of super high bite smooth track with no jumps. Your not going to smack anything anywhere, have you not seen my latest vids? Why would you want thicker oil on a rutted out track, thats backwards? Just about every track i run on is 1/8 rutted out and i usually end up with the quickest lap times and a win.......with 25/20! I cant help you with your setup if you dont do at least do as i ask first, if it doesnt work than so be it but your statement is backwards about oil.....im just sayin
30wt in 2 stage pistons is going to overpack and bounce on the bigger jumps especially in the front since there is no weight up there. Your statement about 20 being too light 2 stage or not is incorrect, it has been proven by MANY that the pistons work better with lighter fluids ESPECIALLY on rutted tracks. If you have a track that has smooth landings off of the big jumps you can get away with it but at the expensive of slower rebound which counter acts the point of 2 stage pistons. Copy my setup, drive it and then we can dial you in. If you ask questions about how to make your truck handle correctly but with a mixture of setups no one can truly help you besides taking a guess at it. If you have my exact setup i can immediately tell you what to change because i have already been through it all.
30wt in 2 stage pistons is going to overpack and bounce on the bigger jumps especially in the front since there is no weight up there. Your statement about 20 being too light 2 stage or not is incorrect, it has been proven by MANY that the pistons work better with lighter fluids ESPECIALLY on rutted tracks. If you have a track that has smooth landings off of the big jumps you can get away with it but at the expensive of slower rebound which counter acts the point of 2 stage pistons. Copy my setup, drive it and then we can dial you in. If you ask questions about how to make your truck handle correctly but with a mixture of setups no one can truly help you besides taking a guess at it. If you have my exact setup i can immediately tell you what to change because i have already been through it all.
I tried mine out tonight at the local carpet & plywood track this time with 7k in the front diff and it cut down on the push but still had just a bit more than I wanted. Gonna try putting in 25/20 and now that I have proper diff grease see what that does.
Also with my setup it seems like i'm getting too much weight transfer to the rear, allowing the fronts balloon going down the straights where I would rather that power be going to the rear where there is more traction. what is the best way to combat that effect? Maybe try the 19t pulley in the rear?
01-13-2012, 08:10 PM
Could that also be the cause of the push out of the corner? Seems like Cyote and I have the same problem and, and both running 30wt up front.
I tried mine out tonight at the local carpet & plywood track this time with 7k in the front diff and it cut down on the push but still had just a bit more than I wanted. Gonna try putting in 25/20 and now that I have proper diff grease see what that does.
Also with my setup it seems like i'm getting too much weight transfer to the rear, allowing the fronts balloon going down the straights where I would rather that power be going to the rear where there is more traction. what is the best way to combat that effect? Maybe try the 19t pulley in the rear?
I tried mine out tonight at the local carpet & plywood track this time with 7k in the front diff and it cut down on the push but still had just a bit more than I wanted. Gonna try putting in 25/20 and now that I have proper diff grease see what that does.
Also with my setup it seems like i'm getting too much weight transfer to the rear, allowing the fronts balloon going down the straights where I would rather that power be going to the rear where there is more traction. what is the best way to combat that effect? Maybe try the 19t pulley in the rear?
Mizchief, its hard to say without seeing what your truck is doing how to fix it but in general you will get more exit push due to the wieght transfer and the dif. tuning is a compromise game, i can tell you how to eliminate it but then it will push on entry and you will have slower laptimes. You are exit pushing because now you have much more rear traction than before and the truck is not rotating on exit where as before your truck was "sliding on exit". There are a few ways to help with this one being your Roll center shims. Adding to them lowers the roll center which will give you more push on entry and more steering on exit. I run 5mm on mine. Toe in will aslo give you less entry steering but more exit steering, i run 1* of toe in on my truck.
Now onto your weight transfer, if you run the 3-3 block it will put more traction on the front and increase on power steering. But you must understand that as it is right now if you add any more rear traction the front tires will come off of the ground. Thats how a dif works, when the front tires are ballooning that means that there is max traction at the rear which goes back to why you are having exit push!!
Shock oils with the 2 stage pistons: to get the maximum potential you want to run the oil as light as you can get away with on a rough track (tight high grip is a different story). i have posted many videos of my truck jumping, landing , turning and 95% of those vids are 25/20(the other 5% are 17wt!!). My latest video (the montage) even has slow motion of jumps with flat bottom landings and the truck is no where near "slapping" or getting upset. Lately i have been running front and rear shock mounts outside on the arms. Strictly on the subject of piston reactions, running the shocks on the outside speeds up piston action and because of the way they work (piston clap) the faster they move ,the more they will pack.
The pistons actually have four stages of action. compression, rebound, low speed pack and high speed pack. Once again if you refer to the videos you will notice that no matter how high i jump or low i jump the truck settles the same way at the same height! Running thicker oils (remember when i was testing V2 piston) simply doesnt work as well no matter what size holes i would drill. So what you are doing by running 30 wt is overpacking the large jumps, it will be fine on med jumps and every where else but they will actually hydro lock for a millisecond before releasing and this will upset the truck more so than and occasional slap. If your trying to tune your truck around one or two jumps on the track you will suffer everywhere else. Even if you do slap with the 2 stage since the rebound is quicker it will not upset the truck near as bad as single stage pistons.
hope this helps
01-13-2012, 08:14 PM
Edited~
01-13-2012, 08:39 PM
Coyote, have it your way i was just trying to find the source of your problem that you asked for help with. I am moving on, let us know what fixes your problem.
Mizchief, its hard to say without seeing what your truck is doing how to fix it but in general you will get more exit push due to the wieght transfer and the dif. tuning is a compromise game, i can tell you how to eliminate it but then it will push on entry and you will have slower laptimes. You are exit pushing because now you have much more rear traction than before and the truck is not rotating on exit where as before your truck was "sliding on exit". There are a few ways to help with this one being your Roll center shims. Adding to them lowers the roll center which will give you more push on entry and more steering on exit. I run 5mm on mine. Toe in will aslo give you less entry steering but more exit steering, i run 1* of toe in on my truck.
Now onto your weight transfer, if you run the 3-3 block it will put more traction on the front and increase on power steering. But you must understand that as it is right now if you add any more rear traction the front tires will come off of the ground. Thats how a dif works, when the front tires are ballooning that means that there is max traction at the rear which goes back to why you are having exit push!!
Shock oils with the 2 stage pistons: to get the maximum potential you want to run the oil as light as you can get away with on a rough track (tight high grip is a different story). i have posted many videos of my truck jumping, landing , turning and 95% of those vids are 25/20(the other 5% are 17wt!!). My latest video (the montage) even has slow motion of jumps with flat bottom landings and the truck is no where near "slapping" or getting upset. Lately i have been running front and rear shock mounts outside on the arms. Strictly on the subject of piston reactions, running the shocks on the outside speeds up piston action and because of the way they work (piston clap) the faster they move ,the more they will pack.
The pistons actually have four stages of action. compression, rebound, low speed pack and high speed pack. Once again if you refer to the videos you will notice that no matter how high i jump or low i jump the truck settles the same way at the same height! Running thicker oils (remember when i was testing V2 piston) simply doesnt work as well no matter what size holes i would drill. So what you are doing by running 30 wt is overpacking the large jumps, it will be fine on med jumps and every where else but they will actually hydro lock for a millisecond before releasing and this will upset the truck more so than and occasional slap. If your trying to tune your truck around one or two jumps on the track you will suffer everywhere else. Even if you do slap with the 2 stage since the rebound is quicker it will not upset the truck near as bad as single stage pistons.
hope this helps
Mizchief, its hard to say without seeing what your truck is doing how to fix it but in general you will get more exit push due to the wieght transfer and the dif. tuning is a compromise game, i can tell you how to eliminate it but then it will push on entry and you will have slower laptimes. You are exit pushing because now you have much more rear traction than before and the truck is not rotating on exit where as before your truck was "sliding on exit". There are a few ways to help with this one being your Roll center shims. Adding to them lowers the roll center which will give you more push on entry and more steering on exit. I run 5mm on mine. Toe in will aslo give you less entry steering but more exit steering, i run 1* of toe in on my truck.
Now onto your weight transfer, if you run the 3-3 block it will put more traction on the front and increase on power steering. But you must understand that as it is right now if you add any more rear traction the front tires will come off of the ground. Thats how a dif works, when the front tires are ballooning that means that there is max traction at the rear which goes back to why you are having exit push!!
Shock oils with the 2 stage pistons: to get the maximum potential you want to run the oil as light as you can get away with on a rough track (tight high grip is a different story). i have posted many videos of my truck jumping, landing , turning and 95% of those vids are 25/20(the other 5% are 17wt!!). My latest video (the montage) even has slow motion of jumps with flat bottom landings and the truck is no where near "slapping" or getting upset. Lately i have been running front and rear shock mounts outside on the arms. Strictly on the subject of piston reactions, running the shocks on the outside speeds up piston action and because of the way they work (piston clap) the faster they move ,the more they will pack.
The pistons actually have four stages of action. compression, rebound, low speed pack and high speed pack. Once again if you refer to the videos you will notice that no matter how high i jump or low i jump the truck settles the same way at the same height! Running thicker oils (remember when i was testing V2 piston) simply doesnt work as well no matter what size holes i would drill. So what you are doing by running 30 wt is overpacking the large jumps, it will be fine on med jumps and every where else but they will actually hydro lock for a millisecond before releasing and this will upset the truck more so than and occasional slap. If your trying to tune your truck around one or two jumps on the track you will suffer everywhere else. Even if you do slap with the 2 stage since the rebound is quicker it will not upset the truck near as bad as single stage pistons.
hope this helps
I could push the big 90deg sweeper as hard as the tires could grip without traction rolling like I was before, it would go right into the perfect drift angle instead and with too much speed would drift to the wall gradually rather than roll or spin around.
While most of the other guys were more green than I running 2wd's it still felt great being the fastest guy out there and I got a lot of practice pacing the other cars from a few feet behind watching out for an avoiding them when they wrecked and trying out different passing lines.
I think your right about the rear traction, while the fronts would ballon, it was only at near full throttle with the 4k pro4 and the rears were laying some rubber in the process. I guess I can't ask for much more than having all 4 wheels spin at the same time.
I'm think saddle packs may be the missing ingredient in this, having that weight riding a little closer to the front should help keep it more distributed.
01-13-2012, 08:40 PM
Marcus has done alot of painful r&d on this truck, and is very generous with setup info and has figured out a lot of good solutions and worthwhile mods, I.dunno.Id listen to.his.advice first.then.try.your.way and see what works better.
I think we can all agree that we want put the smack down on the Losi right? LOL.
I think we can all agree that we want put the smack down on the Losi right? LOL.
01-13-2012, 09:42 PM
25w w/1.2 is a world of difference from 20 or 25w with dual stage pistons. Remember, it's not just the 1.1/1.3, but you also have the extra pack of the pistons coming together.
Like Harry from Days of Thunder said....run 50 laps your way, then run 50 laps his way....dollars to donuts, Marcus is right.
Or, you can be like Cole...."Harry, I'm putting him into the wall." But then you'd be driving....that other 4x4....
Like Harry from Days of Thunder said....run 50 laps your way, then run 50 laps his way....dollars to donuts, Marcus is right.
Or, you can be like Cole...."Harry, I'm putting him into the wall." But then you'd be driving....that other 4x4....
01-13-2012, 09:51 PM
Tech Adept
iTrader: (1)
FWIW...25/20 my truck is money with the 2 stage pistons...currently hold the 4x4 record @ my home track...I've got a lap on the field...
01-13-2012, 10:02 PM
Oh my God. I get it, jerks! 
I stand corrected (no matter experience) by the explaination given to Miz.
I stand corrected (no matter experience) by the explaination given to Miz.
01-14-2012, 03:07 AM
Marcus,
Thanks for explaining why the lighter oil works better. Now to try it out. My track is semi rough, dry hard pack, with medium to small jumps. 25 and 20? Or maybe lighter? I'm at 6.6lbs with yellow front and blue rear on springs. They seem to work well but that's with 32.5 and 27.5 so would the lighter oil be better with a lighter spring or are the two not so closely related? How about the Effect on traction roll or go with heavier sway bars. Ooogh its all so complicated it makes my head hurt! Of course it is 3am on the graveyard shift:0
Thanks for explaining why the lighter oil works better. Now to try it out. My track is semi rough, dry hard pack, with medium to small jumps. 25 and 20? Or maybe lighter? I'm at 6.6lbs with yellow front and blue rear on springs. They seem to work well but that's with 32.5 and 27.5 so would the lighter oil be better with a lighter spring or are the two not so closely related? How about the Effect on traction roll or go with heavier sway bars. Ooogh its all so complicated it makes my head hurt! Of course it is 3am on the graveyard shift:0
01-14-2012, 04:32 AM
I have resorted to 20w rear and 25w front with 1.2s because it's been so cold around here in the early AM (high twenties). Frankly, if it would stay that cold all day I'd go to 15/20!
