57LikesIs there a real need for the new 235mm class
03-10-2023, 07:20 AM
#46
That is wrong to say. Problem with the EFRA is that they have no direct contact with the drivers but all meetings are done with country representatives. Those representatives mostly do not talk with the drivers of their country of how to vote for proposals. Not to mention that even then you do see people voting for personal or even commercial reasons.
03-10-2023, 07:36 AM
#47
Possible dumb question: Can you fit a crappy pullstart .12 motor into a 1/8 classic chassis and slap on a sedan shell?
Limit to 1 gear /2wd /control tyres.
Limit to 1 gear /2wd /control tyres.
03-15-2023, 02:03 AM
#48
Tech Adept
https://www.redrc.net/2023/03/pip-ae...l/#more-210246
Those who wants to make these cars with wider tyres seriously need to wake up. Wider tyres can put the power down better, resulting in people needs to have the fastest engine = not cheaper. I get the idea of removing diffs and having solid rear axle and front oneway, but something needs to be done to the engine as well.
Make some fixed timing values, stroke, bore etc. that engine manufacturers needs to follow, and make the maximum MSRP of the engine €150 and €200 with pipe. Same bearings in the engine, optimum would be fixed engine design, where the manufacturers only can change the cooling head to their desired design and color.
Those who wants to make these cars with wider tyres seriously need to wake up. Wider tyres can put the power down better, resulting in people needs to have the fastest engine = not cheaper. I get the idea of removing diffs and having solid rear axle and front oneway, but something needs to be done to the engine as well.
Make some fixed timing values, stroke, bore etc. that engine manufacturers needs to follow, and make the maximum MSRP of the engine €150 and €200 with pipe. Same bearings in the engine, optimum would be fixed engine design, where the manufacturers only can change the cooling head to their desired design and color.
03-15-2023, 03:24 AM
#49
"...comes out of necessity for a upcoming new 235mm class as there are no existing bodies available for those wanting to race."
This is a seriously funny statement - what came first, the body or those wanting to race?
On a serious note, as an asphalt nitro racer I wish all the best for our struggling breed. I just hope you guys know what you're doing. I always enjoyed watching 1/10 at some races I've been to as they look amazing and on the edge.
This is a seriously funny statement - what came first, the body or those wanting to race?
On a serious note, as an asphalt nitro racer I wish all the best for our struggling breed. I just hope you guys know what you're doing. I always enjoyed watching 1/10 at some races I've been to as they look amazing and on the edge.
03-15-2023, 04:20 AM
#50
https://www.redrc.net/2023/03/pip-ae...l/#more-210246
Those who wants to make these cars with wider tyres seriously need to wake up. Wider tyres can put the power down better, resulting in people needs to have the fastest engine = not cheaper. I get the idea of removing diffs and having solid rear axle and front oneway, but something needs to be done to the engine as well.
Make some fixed timing values, stroke, bore etc. that engine manufacturers needs to follow, and make the maximum MSRP of the engine €150 and €200 with pipe. Same bearings in the engine, optimum would be fixed engine design, where the manufacturers only can change the cooling head to their desired design and color.
Those who wants to make these cars with wider tyres seriously need to wake up. Wider tyres can put the power down better, resulting in people needs to have the fastest engine = not cheaper. I get the idea of removing diffs and having solid rear axle and front oneway, but something needs to be done to the engine as well.
Make some fixed timing values, stroke, bore etc. that engine manufacturers needs to follow, and make the maximum MSRP of the engine €150 and €200 with pipe. Same bearings in the engine, optimum would be fixed engine design, where the manufacturers only can change the cooling head to their desired design and color.
A blue printed engine would be something, but forget it, you do need a lot of effort to find out if the engine is really standard because I know from some German Hobbycup engine experiments.....
03-15-2023, 04:28 AM
#51
Tech Adept
The shown pictures are from a good side to hide the wrong shape. It is the same body as shown before in this topic, looking from above the dimensions are totally ugly.
A blue printed engine would be something, but forget it, you do need a lot of effort to find out if the engine is really standard because I know from some German Hobbycup engine experiments.....
A blue printed engine would be something, but forget it, you do need a lot of effort to find out if the engine is really standard because I know from some German Hobbycup engine experiments.....
03-15-2023, 06:52 AM
#52
Then Serpent came with the EVO2 engine with different bore/stroke specs. Keeping the port heights at the same specified specs did give that engine higher port timings. How to win an EC when only those engines were available for the team drivers......
The German Hobbycup has one rule, no grinding..... Any work on the crankshaft and ports will be seen but open up the hole in the crankcase under the carburator nicely with a mill will never be detected if people are only doing a visual inspection. The Picco PSS engine has the crankcase everywhere black anodized. OK, if you really want to cheat a re-anodize is easily done.
With brushless there are resistance limits set on the coils, one winding less will lower the resistance a lot and will be detected, even people who like to rewind as tight as possible for a shorter wire can get problems going under the limit..
But still you need to measure it as also the rotor strength, sensor timing etc when all is set to real stock with a locked endbell.
To make it more easy with a one type of motor some manufacturers did laser engrave partnumbers on all parts to show if they are original, it is still no 100% detecting but for many people less easy to exchange parts with something better.
With Nitro it is the same, if you want a blue printed engine, you do need a device to measure port and cranktimings and also the bore and stroke.
03-15-2023, 08:12 AM
#53
Yet as others have stated, many have "re-discovered" this class, without knowing or being aware that we had 235mm years ago... so now they are trying to "invent" it...
So for them, I wish them all the luck, as reviving classes without taking into account why they fell out of favor does not always work out (F1 and Pro-10 for example).
It should be a support class with no Factory drivers allowed! Lets not forget how Patrick Schäfer and Thomas Burger Ringer have tried to Stimulation 1:8IC with their seies.
03-15-2023, 06:14 PM
#54
^Hmmm, maybe it's time to mandate very small restrictor sizes or start downsizing the engines for 1/10th. As the complaint is too much power....
I think XRAY once had a .09 engine for their 1/18 th scale.....
I think XRAY once had a .09 engine for their 1/18 th scale.....
03-15-2023, 11:54 PM
#55
I like it
Hiya folks,
I have a converted mugen mtx4 to 220/235 specs...
Whilst I do use a lola bodyshell (cos it came with the conversion), I do run it as a 2wd (with 2 speed) and a .12 os tz engine. It's fun as heck.
My personal views to RC is that it has transformed from being a fun activity, to an intense balls out racing program. If 235mm (hopefully as 2wd) does make a come back, I hope it becomes a fun class where people can enjoy the racing, rather then just focusing on a trophy win.
Intense racing has its place... just not as a hobby.
I have a converted mugen mtx4 to 220/235 specs...
Whilst I do use a lola bodyshell (cos it came with the conversion), I do run it as a 2wd (with 2 speed) and a .12 os tz engine. It's fun as heck.
My personal views to RC is that it has transformed from being a fun activity, to an intense balls out racing program. If 235mm (hopefully as 2wd) does make a come back, I hope it becomes a fun class where people can enjoy the racing, rather then just focusing on a trophy win.
Intense racing has its place... just not as a hobby.
03-16-2023, 12:17 AM
#56
^^^^^ So true
Most racers today only complain about grip. Illegal tire saucing was the trick for many racers to go fast but the majority does not want tire saucing because it costs money and time. Funny is to read that all want the track owners to spray their tracks with some grip fluid. To me it is the same idea but only shifting the costs and work to the track.
To me searching for grip with some setup changes and driving style is a part of racing no matter how the grip is.
Most racers today only complain about grip. Illegal tire saucing was the trick for many racers to go fast but the majority does not want tire saucing because it costs money and time. Funny is to read that all want the track owners to spray their tracks with some grip fluid. To me it is the same idea but only shifting the costs and work to the track.
To me searching for grip with some setup changes and driving style is a part of racing no matter how the grip is.
03-16-2023, 12:35 PM
#57
I’m quite a bit late to this thread, but I honestly think that the IC 200mm class is a victim of its initial success, especially after a WC class was created for it. With a world title up for grabs, it garner attention, and with that attention comes innovation.
Of course, the cars have gotten better (I still remember my Serpent Impulse, and today’s cars are worlds apart), but more importantly, the engines have gotten a lot more powerful! I remember my first couple of drives with my Impulse. Sure, it was a little faster than my EP 190mm at the time, but not by much. Today’s ICTC’s are much faster than those cars/engines from over 20 years ago… like, SCARY fast. And with the increase in speed, so comes the increase in difficulty - with setting up the chassis, not to mention the test of limits for the drivers. While it might not be too much to handle for WC drivers, and perhaps the younger generation, I can tell you that it’s a bit of a handful for… let me just say “experienced” folks like myself.
Maybe the 200mm class should be more of a “stock” type class - but with a WC class under contention, it’s probably too late for that now - and the LAST thing anyone wants is another designation, such as “Stock/Sportsman”. I think we all can agree that class mes have gotten segmented enough already.
So I don’t know what a 235mm class would accomplish - sure, the wider stance will make them more stable, but you still have to figure out the setups, they’ll still get faster (and harder to drive) making setup even more important. At the end of the day, they will share the same “sore thumb” that the old EP Pan class had with non-prototype bodies, and that is that the width of the chassis makes the cars look weird. Even the 200mm width pushes the boundaries of keeping within scale looking appearance.
Of course, the cars have gotten better (I still remember my Serpent Impulse, and today’s cars are worlds apart), but more importantly, the engines have gotten a lot more powerful! I remember my first couple of drives with my Impulse. Sure, it was a little faster than my EP 190mm at the time, but not by much. Today’s ICTC’s are much faster than those cars/engines from over 20 years ago… like, SCARY fast. And with the increase in speed, so comes the increase in difficulty - with setting up the chassis, not to mention the test of limits for the drivers. While it might not be too much to handle for WC drivers, and perhaps the younger generation, I can tell you that it’s a bit of a handful for… let me just say “experienced” folks like myself.
Maybe the 200mm class should be more of a “stock” type class - but with a WC class under contention, it’s probably too late for that now - and the LAST thing anyone wants is another designation, such as “Stock/Sportsman”. I think we all can agree that class mes have gotten segmented enough already.
So I don’t know what a 235mm class would accomplish - sure, the wider stance will make them more stable, but you still have to figure out the setups, they’ll still get faster (and harder to drive) making setup even more important. At the end of the day, they will share the same “sore thumb” that the old EP Pan class had with non-prototype bodies, and that is that the width of the chassis makes the cars look weird. Even the 200mm width pushes the boundaries of keeping within scale looking appearance.
03-16-2023, 06:22 PM
#58
I dont see the problem with this class as long as the cars handle better still use the .12 motors and there easier to drive. Wouldnt it be easier for people to convert there 200mm chassis over to 235 and run what they got? The motors will handle the larger tires making the cars easier to drive and make the tuning window of the cars better. why such push back on trying to either evolve the class and bring in new people into the rc culture. Yes it has failed in the past but I see nothing wrong in trying to correct and learn from the mistakes and making something better.
03-16-2023, 10:29 PM
#59
Er...
I’m quite a bit late to this thread, but I honestly think that the IC 200mm class is a victim of its initial success, especially after a WC class was created for it. With a world title up for grabs, it garner attention, and with that attention comes innovation.
Of course, the cars have gotten better (I still remember my Serpent Impulse, and today’s cars are worlds apart), but more importantly, the engines have gotten a lot more powerful! I remember my first couple of drives with my Impulse. Sure, it was a little faster than my EP 190mm at the time, but not by much. Today’s ICTC’s are much faster than those cars/engines from over 20 years ago… like, SCARY fast. And with the increase in speed, so comes the increase in difficulty - with setting up the chassis, not to mention the test of limits for the drivers. While it might not be too much to handle for WC drivers, and perhaps the younger generation, I can tell you that it’s a bit of a handful for… let me just say “experienced” folks like myself.
Maybe the 200mm class should be more of a “stock” type class - but with a WC class under contention, it’s probably too late for that now - and the LAST thing anyone wants is another designation, such as “Stock/Sportsman”. I think we all can agree that class mes have gotten segmented enough already.
So I don’t know what a 235mm class would accomplish - sure, the wider stance will make them more stable, but you still have to figure out the setups, they’ll still get faster (and harder to drive) making setup even more important. At the end of the day, they will share the same “sore thumb” that the old EP Pan class had with non-prototype bodies, and that is that the width of the chassis makes the cars look weird. Even the 200mm width pushes the boundaries of keeping within scale looking appearance.
Of course, the cars have gotten better (I still remember my Serpent Impulse, and today’s cars are worlds apart), but more importantly, the engines have gotten a lot more powerful! I remember my first couple of drives with my Impulse. Sure, it was a little faster than my EP 190mm at the time, but not by much. Today’s ICTC’s are much faster than those cars/engines from over 20 years ago… like, SCARY fast. And with the increase in speed, so comes the increase in difficulty - with setting up the chassis, not to mention the test of limits for the drivers. While it might not be too much to handle for WC drivers, and perhaps the younger generation, I can tell you that it’s a bit of a handful for… let me just say “experienced” folks like myself.
Maybe the 200mm class should be more of a “stock” type class - but with a WC class under contention, it’s probably too late for that now - and the LAST thing anyone wants is another designation, such as “Stock/Sportsman”. I think we all can agree that class mes have gotten segmented enough already.
So I don’t know what a 235mm class would accomplish - sure, the wider stance will make them more stable, but you still have to figure out the setups, they’ll still get faster (and harder to drive) making setup even more important. At the end of the day, they will share the same “sore thumb” that the old EP Pan class had with non-prototype bodies, and that is that the width of the chassis makes the cars look weird. Even the 200mm width pushes the boundaries of keeping within scale looking appearance.
Be it gp, gt, 1/12, istc, gt12, 1/10 gp, 235mm...
None of the bodyshells remotely resemble a car anymore...
except maybe... f1?
03-17-2023, 02:08 AM
#60
Tech Adept
I dont see the problem with this class as long as the cars handle better still use the .12 motors and there easier to drive. Wouldnt it be easier for people to convert there 200mm chassis over to 235 and run what they got? The motors will handle the larger tires making the cars easier to drive and make the tuning window of the cars better. why such push back on trying to either evolve the class and bring in new people into the rc culture. Yes it has failed in the past but I see nothing wrong in trying to correct and learn from the mistakes and making something better.
They need to focus on making it cheaper to run, not make it more expensive which is what they are doing atm.