Safety of Orion/Peak 3200 Lipo packs
11-14-2007, 01:49 PM
#31
Things that go boom in the middle of the night?
30 posts. No show stoppers. Come on guys where is the bad news.
Where did the negative publicity about LiPo come from? Where are the bad stories about the race car certified Orion 3200/4800?
Where are the fires that burn down racer's cars and homs in the middle of the night?
Where are the explosions that wake up the neighbors?
TTT.
Where did the negative publicity about LiPo come from? Where are the bad stories about the race car certified Orion 3200/4800?
Where are the fires that burn down racer's cars and homs in the middle of the night?
Where are the explosions that wake up the neighbors?
TTT.
Last edited by TeamB&B; 11-15-2007 at 09:15 AM.
11-14-2007, 02:16 PM
#32
The Kokam cells are very difficult to ignite (basically impossible under normal circumstances) and even if they do ignite, the fire is short-lived. As others have said, these are the only cells approved for air travel.
The bad news? They have lousy voltage compared to other LiPo, which is apparently a side-effect of their safer chemistry. So, the doom and gloom will come from people saying that racing is all about voltage, and when racers get to LiPo, they'll never use the safer cells because they want voltage, etc etc, blah blah blah.
This is the reason I've been kind of hoping we go to a spec battery with LiPo, or have a very short list of allowed cells. From one manufacturer to another, you can see a huge variance in voltage and safety. But, if you stick with one type of cell from one manufacturer, the tolerance from one cell to the next are amazingly close, especially when they come from a quality source like Kokam. Voltage is arbitrary if everybody is running the same thing, but if you leave it wide open, "racers" will eventually gravitate toward whatever provides the most juice, not what's the safest.
I used the Orion packs for a year without a single incident. I've since switched to a cell from Saehan Enertech because it provides a lot more voltage, and is still relatively safe. I'm racing against a lot of guys using NiMH, and was suffering from the lower voltage.
The bad news? They have lousy voltage compared to other LiPo, which is apparently a side-effect of their safer chemistry. So, the doom and gloom will come from people saying that racing is all about voltage, and when racers get to LiPo, they'll never use the safer cells because they want voltage, etc etc, blah blah blah.
This is the reason I've been kind of hoping we go to a spec battery with LiPo, or have a very short list of allowed cells. From one manufacturer to another, you can see a huge variance in voltage and safety. But, if you stick with one type of cell from one manufacturer, the tolerance from one cell to the next are amazingly close, especially when they come from a quality source like Kokam. Voltage is arbitrary if everybody is running the same thing, but if you leave it wide open, "racers" will eventually gravitate toward whatever provides the most juice, not what's the safest.
I used the Orion packs for a year without a single incident. I've since switched to a cell from Saehan Enertech because it provides a lot more voltage, and is still relatively safe. I'm racing against a lot of guys using NiMH, and was suffering from the lower voltage.
11-14-2007, 02:25 PM
#33
We had one Orion go puff outdoors on our off-road track. From what I can tell no mistakes were made charging. It smoked up a bit but never burst into flames. I've been told the smoke is very toxic ?
For that reason, and due to the small size of our indoor pitt areas I've held off on allowing li-pos indoors. If and when we do run them inside the hard case style will be a mandate. I agree with a previous poster a 4-cell equivilent for 12th scale would be nice.
For that reason, and due to the small size of our indoor pitt areas I've held off on allowing li-pos indoors. If and when we do run them inside the hard case style will be a mandate. I agree with a previous poster a 4-cell equivilent for 12th scale would be nice.
11-14-2007, 02:45 PM
#34
Tech Adept
NiMh makers of course
More serious now, 5 or 6 years ago some problems happened usually because low tech chargers for lipo that by that time used jumpers to change number of cells and charge current.
Is was easy to forget to change the jumper from 3 cells to 2 cells and the problems happened.
Nowadays is quite dificult to find a charger that allow a mistake in the number of cells as the charger will not start.
Remember that by the time it was a new technology and everybody was learning how to use it.
What is strange to me is that I read post in RCtech of people thinking lipo is in their first steps, but come on Aerobatic Championships of F3A planes have been won by planes with lipos and brushless motors (they use 10 cells in series) for some years allready.
It is true that rc cars use brushless motor for one year (and some still with sensors, that is pre-historic for brushless, in planes sensors are not used for 5 years) and still do not allow lipos, but you must be aware that this is a problem of the lobbies in this hobby.
Buy a model airplane magazine and look for the adverstising. No more NiMh and no more brushed motor even for the cheapest planes.
New technology is better and much cheaper.
The technology is here and we are looking at what?
More serious now, 5 or 6 years ago some problems happened usually because low tech chargers for lipo that by that time used jumpers to change number of cells and charge current.
Is was easy to forget to change the jumper from 3 cells to 2 cells and the problems happened.
Nowadays is quite dificult to find a charger that allow a mistake in the number of cells as the charger will not start.
Remember that by the time it was a new technology and everybody was learning how to use it.
What is strange to me is that I read post in RCtech of people thinking lipo is in their first steps, but come on Aerobatic Championships of F3A planes have been won by planes with lipos and brushless motors (they use 10 cells in series) for some years allready.
It is true that rc cars use brushless motor for one year (and some still with sensors, that is pre-historic for brushless, in planes sensors are not used for 5 years) and still do not allow lipos, but you must be aware that this is a problem of the lobbies in this hobby.
Buy a model airplane magazine and look for the adverstising. No more NiMh and no more brushed motor even for the cheapest planes.
New technology is better and much cheaper.
The technology is here and we are looking at what?
11-14-2007, 02:55 PM
#35
bill,
R
R
11-14-2007, 03:03 PM
#36
Done Deal
MrBlack is also a user here on RcTech.net. MrBlack is involved with the development and sales of the Orion LiPo battery system. He stated that the LiPo system has over 3 years and 10,000+ sales.
Therefore, TaJoe. I say shut down this thread and call it a day. I doubt anyone will have any (significant) failures to post. Or any pattern of poor quality concerning these battery systems.
Where do we go from here?:
Print out these post or link to it and forward to your track race directors. Mr. Black will gladly provide track certification documents and stamp of approval to any track that wants to run the Orion LiPo packs.
Have a nice day and hurry up and sell your dischargers and balance trays before the value goes down.
Therefore, TaJoe. I say shut down this thread and call it a day. I doubt anyone will have any (significant) failures to post. Or any pattern of poor quality concerning these battery systems.
Where do we go from here?:
Print out these post or link to it and forward to your track race directors. Mr. Black will gladly provide track certification documents and stamp of approval to any track that wants to run the Orion LiPo packs.
Have a nice day and hurry up and sell your dischargers and balance trays before the value goes down.
Last edited by TeamB&B; 11-14-2007 at 07:32 PM.
11-14-2007, 03:37 PM
#38
There is much to consider in deciding what to run. Ed I don't think you have as much invested in NiMH batteries as most people do (especially if you are buying them used). Bill we are considering allowing these cells in our club races, Ed please stop the instigation, your point has been made. People will run what they have. Which is a standard of what they will run at national and regional events. The decisions race tracks make are not based on loyalty from one manufacturer to the other it's what the entire group of racers decide is right to keep that track in business.
Peace,
C
Peace,
C
11-14-2007, 03:43 PM
#39
Tech Adept
A lot of people here in rctech is mentioning the Lipo from Orion, but there are a lot of other makers like them if not better.
Orion uses nice cells (20C generation) in the 3200mah pack and some older generation cells in the 4800 (15 C generation). In fact the 4800 pack are 4 cells, two parallel packs of two 2400mah in series. Peak is just the same with diferent color.
I am using 4900 TrakPower packs in a hard golden case. Just two cells in series with 4900mah and 20C generation, capable of 50C maximum momentary spikes. FlightPower (the maker of Trakpower) is realeasing 30C (after the 25C generation) cells now for airplanes and helis.
And there are others very good brands in hard cases as well, Graupner and Schumacher for example (using the same cell brand as Trakpower I believe), Trinity is coming with a new pack I believe, so there is plenty to choose from. And just mentioning the packs in hard cases.
Orion uses nice cells (20C generation) in the 3200mah pack and some older generation cells in the 4800 (15 C generation). In fact the 4800 pack are 4 cells, two parallel packs of two 2400mah in series. Peak is just the same with diferent color.
I am using 4900 TrakPower packs in a hard golden case. Just two cells in series with 4900mah and 20C generation, capable of 50C maximum momentary spikes. FlightPower (the maker of Trakpower) is realeasing 30C (after the 25C generation) cells now for airplanes and helis.
And there are others very good brands in hard cases as well, Graupner and Schumacher for example (using the same cell brand as Trakpower I believe), Trinity is coming with a new pack I believe, so there is plenty to choose from. And just mentioning the packs in hard cases.
11-14-2007, 03:47 PM
#40
A lot of people here in rctech is mentioning the Lipo from Orion, but there are a lot of other makers like them if not better.
Orion uses nice cells (20C generation) in the 3200mah pack and some older generation cells in the 4800 (15 C generation). In fact the 4800 pack are 4 cells, two parallel packs of two 2400mah in series. Peak is just the same with diferent color.
I am using 4900 TrakPower packs in a hard golden case. Just two cells in series with 4900mah and 20C generation, capable of 50C maximum momentary spikes. FlightPower (the maker of Trakpower) is realeasing 30C (after the 25C generation) cells now for airplanes and helis.
And there are others very good brands in hard cases as well, Graupner and Schumacher for example (using the same cell brand as Trakpower I believe), Trinity is coming with a new pack I believe, so there is plenty to choose from. And just mentioning the packs in hard cases.
Orion uses nice cells (20C generation) in the 3200mah pack and some older generation cells in the 4800 (15 C generation). In fact the 4800 pack are 4 cells, two parallel packs of two 2400mah in series. Peak is just the same with diferent color.
I am using 4900 TrakPower packs in a hard golden case. Just two cells in series with 4900mah and 20C generation, capable of 50C maximum momentary spikes. FlightPower (the maker of Trakpower) is realeasing 30C (after the 25C generation) cells now for airplanes and helis.
And there are others very good brands in hard cases as well, Graupner and Schumacher for example (using the same cell brand as Trakpower I believe), Trinity is coming with a new pack I believe, so there is plenty to choose from. And just mentioning the packs in hard cases.
but orion is what my LHS gets and gets easy and cheap. well cheaper than c cells.
11-14-2007, 04:48 PM
#42
I talked to Cliff Black at Team Orion today. MrBlack is also a user here on RcTech.net. MrBlack is directly responsible for the development and sales of the Orion LiPo battery system. He stated that over 3 years and 10,000+ sales, there were no failures leading to a fire or explosion. In fact, he recalls only 1 battery that had to be replaced because of a manufacturing flaw.
Also we have had more then one battery come back to us due to defect but the percentage has been less then .01 percent in the well over 10,000 that have been sold.
Again I just wanted to clarify, are record is fantastic with this product and it's success does not have to be spun to be good.
Thank you all again for all the kind words on our product.
11-14-2007, 05:01 PM
#43
Tech Adept
MrBlack let me give you the congratulations for yours fantastic job at Orion with the LiPo batteries.
Orion was the first major brand that looked into the future of our hobby.
Of course I would like to see Orion (not only Orion to speak the truth) making pressure to allow lipo at oficial competitions as I believe it will be a step forward.
Orion was the first major brand that looked into the future of our hobby.
Of course I would like to see Orion (not only Orion to speak the truth) making pressure to allow lipo at oficial competitions as I believe it will be a step forward.
11-14-2007, 05:07 PM
#44
Tech Rookie
Orion Lipo Safety
It's great to see all the positive feedback on our Lipo batteries, but this really does not prove they are safe, it just shows we have lots of satisified customers on this forum and for that we are grateful.
What does prove that our Lipo batteries are the safest in the industry is the IATA (International Air Transport Association) certification they received. According to Kokam, who makes our Lipo cells, Kokam Lipo cells are the only Lipo batteries that are approved to be shipped by air. They are also used in aviation for both the military and the airline industry. If it's safe enough to be shipped and used in an airplane, it is certainly safe enough to be used at your local track.
Our defect rate is less than one-tenth of one percent and we have had no reported incendents of property damage due to an Orion/Kokam cell igniting or exploding.
When it comes to safety and performance, we stand behind our Lipo cells 100%.
Joel Johnson
President
Team Orion, Inc.
What does prove that our Lipo batteries are the safest in the industry is the IATA (International Air Transport Association) certification they received. According to Kokam, who makes our Lipo cells, Kokam Lipo cells are the only Lipo batteries that are approved to be shipped by air. They are also used in aviation for both the military and the airline industry. If it's safe enough to be shipped and used in an airplane, it is certainly safe enough to be used at your local track.
Our defect rate is less than one-tenth of one percent and we have had no reported incendents of property damage due to an Orion/Kokam cell igniting or exploding.
When it comes to safety and performance, we stand behind our Lipo cells 100%.
Joel Johnson
President
Team Orion, Inc.
11-14-2007, 05:07 PM
#45
Tech Rookie
Orion Lipo Safety
Sorry for the double post.
Last edited by Joel Johnson; 11-14-2007 at 05:09 PM. Reason: Double Post...